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<br /> <b>Strict Standards</b>: Non-static method BP_Options::get() should not be called statically in <b>/home/absolut6/public_html/forums/bb-includes/backpress/functions.bp-options.php</b> on line <b>9</b><br /> Did all the jivas come from spiritual world? « Absolute-Truth Forums

Absolute-Truth Forums » Perfect Question, Perfect Answers

Did all the jivas come from spiritual world?

(3 posts)
  1. Truth Seeker
    Key Master

    Some devotees in Sydney, Madhudvisa explained, had been propagating the theory that since no one falls from Vaikuntha, the conditioned souls must have fallen from the Brahman effulgence.

    When I arrived here in Sydney, I was asked the same question that Subal Maharaja asked you, and I proceeded to answer in your like fashion. This caused some disturbance amongst all the devotees, for previously Mohanananda, Upendra and others were teaching something else. That is, we never had an active relationship with Krishna, and they substantiated their point from the Krishna book, the chapter entitled. "Description of Autumn" first three pages, and Brahma-samhita, by your guru maharaja, purport to Mantra Sixteen.

    The discrepancy is this:

    Do the jivas exist before coming to this material world as pencils of rays emanating from the Brahman or did we, before falling into this material world, have a manifested pastime with Krishna on Goloka or Vaikuntha, in any of the five major rasas or any other minor rasa?

    Before the very first falldown, were we with Krishna in our manifested spiritual body in Vaikuntha or Goloka, or did we have an unmanifested spiritual body and not have a personal relationship with the Lord?

    If we did not have any personal relationship with the Lord, then how could we 'regain our lost Krishna consciousness'?

    Madhudvisa concluded his letter:

    I know that this question is arising all over the society and being answered in so many different ways. Please, I pray that I be worthy of your answer. I have looked for the answer to this question in your books, but incompetent as I am, I cannot seem to find the answer. For me it is sufficient to know that my only shelter is at your feet. But for the consistency of this pure and imperishable science, I beg you to answer this question in detail. If you desire, we can print up your answer and distribute this to the worldwide centres.

    -----

    Srila Prabhupada maintained the lives and affairs of his disciples all over the world by his correspondence. Receiving a letter from Srila Prabhupada was a significant event for a disciple -- the instructions it contained were as effective as a personal visit. Moreover, within ISKCON Prabhupada's will was so powerful that a single letter from him would establish a policy for years to come. This was particularly so with Prabhupada's response to philosophical points.

    Srila Prabhupada had read Madhudvisa's letter enquiring into the origin of the living entities, and dictated a lengthy reply to his secretary, Syamasundara. When Madhudvisa Swami received Prabhupada's detailed three-page response, he copied it and sent it out to all the Australasian centres. In the letter, entitled "Kaka taliya nyaya -- Crow and Tal-Fruit Logic", Srila Prabhupada shed light on the controversy about whether the conditioned souls fell from the Brahman effulgence or from Vaikuntha. He wrote:

    We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. For example, one man is dreaming, and he forgets himself. In a dream he creates himself in different forms -- "Now I am the king". This creation of himself is as seer and as the subject -- or the seen -- two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even when we are with Krishna, the desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

    Prabhupada had consistently taught that souls have the option of exercising their freedom even in the spiritual world, and hence of falling into the illusion of material existence. Since the soul is a spiritual part of God, he has inherent independence or free will, which he can misuse. Prabhupada reiterated this point in his letter:

    At the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers the sand on the shore, and sometimes there is dry sand; the ocean is coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately illusion is there, just as when we sleep, a dream is there. We cannot say, therefore, that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become the Lord, immediately we are covered by maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore [in the interim] many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. It is like in a dream: We are thinking it is a very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only.

    Prabhupada gave another example from the Srimad-Bhagavatam:

    Krishna's friends were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

    Prabhupada further explained by citing yet another example -- that of Jaya and Vijaya, the two gatekeepers at a gateway to Vaikuntha, who once refused entrance to the four great sages, the Kumaras, and were subsequently cursed by them to fall to the material world:

    So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness this period is considered a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya had their lila with Krishna, but they had to come down [to the material world] for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahma-sayujya [Lord Krishna's impersonal effulgence], after being killed three times as demons. This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure; it consists of eternal existence only. So when those who get Brahma-sayujya mukti do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss, for example, by founding schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma is still material and wants to lord it over the material world. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krishna consciousness and go back home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

    So when I say "yes, there is eternal lila with Krishna", that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krishna, he goes up only to Brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya, he thinks that this may be his origin, but he does not remember that even before that, he was with Krishna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krishna consciousness and immediately join Krishna. With a diseased man it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease.

    Prabhupada illustrated this point with an allegorical story:

    On the top of a tree there was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some pandits -- big, big learned scholars -- saw this and discussed: "The fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb."

    "No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away."

    "No, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch." And so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahma-sayujya or with Krishna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [back to Godhead] never mind what is your origin.

    The precise details of the soul's fall, Prabhupada explained, would perhaps continue to be an enigma. But his conclusion was clear:

    Brahma-sayujya and Krishna lila -- both may be possible. But when you came down from Brahma-sayujya or when you came down from Krishna lila, that remains a mystery.

    But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krishna, and servant of Krishna means in Krishna lila. Directly or indirectly, we are always serving Krishna's lila, even in dream. Just as we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krishna lila?

    Srila Prabhupada summed up by way of a few more potent analogies:

    The cloud may be there -- the sky may become very grey and dim -- but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Similarly, because I am part and parcel of Krishna, I am always connected with Krishna. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krishna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative. Awake or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krishna. Cause and effect are both Krishna. For example, cotton becomes thread, and thread becomes cloth. Still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krishna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krishna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krishna's lila. But we see differences under different conditions.

    To give another example: In the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflected, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady; one is clear and fixed. Except when we are in Krishna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly; therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krishna. Material existence is impersonal because [in that existence] my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased. And we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way.

    Prabhupada's final advice on the issue left no doubts in Madhudvisa's mind: the efforts to comprehend the causal history of the jiva's falldown was ultimately a misuse of valuable time.

    Now the fruit is there -- take it and enjoy. That is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change [anything]; He is the cause of all causes. Now don't waste your time with this kaka-taliya-nyaya, "crow-and-tal-fruit logic".

    - From "The Great Transcendental Adventure" by HG Kurma Prabhu

    Posted 7 years ago #
  2. Truth Seeker
    Key Master


    Here is a more straightforward answer from Srila Prabhupada.

    If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planets. Now we want to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down. Just like Jaya and Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, 'Go back to home, back to Godhead.' There is a process. If you follow the process, then you go back. If you fall down, that is your fault. Therefore, this life is meant for tapasya, that is Rsabhadeva's instruction, that our life should not be wasted like the dogs and hogs and pigs. It should be utilised for tapasya, for understanding our position. Tapo putraka yena suddhyed sattvam. This is the aim of life. We have to purify our existence. At the present moment our existence is impure. Therefore we are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. And as soon as we purify ourselves, then we are not subjected to these four material laws. Thank you very much, Hare Krsna."

    With that, Srila Prabhupada brought the final session to a close.

    - From "The Great Transcendental Adventure" by HG Kurma Prabhu

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. Truth Seeker
    Key Master

    Here is one more

    After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like
    Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual
    principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak
    of this material world. Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world,
    no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down.
    Now, when the spirit soul falls down? Just like Jaya-Vijaya. Jaya and Vijaya
    became asuras. They fell down from Vaikuntha.

    >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3 -- Honolulu, July 4, 1974

    Posted 4 years ago #

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